Anton Schindler in Beethoven's life

Here is the thread I promise.. Let's get the ball rolling on!

I have curiousity since getting into beethoven reading the biography of a genuis. I've always thinking of the conversation books that was burn out in the open fire.

Angel Wrote:
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. I've always
> thinking of the conversation books that was burn
> out in the open fire.

Allegedly Schindler the Swindler burnt more than half of the original pile of Conversation books.
Thankfully the surviving books have now been deciphered, transcribed, annotated and published in their entirety (Ludwig van Beethovens Konversationshefte. Ed. Karl-Heinz Köhler e.a.. 11 vols. Leipzig, 1969-2001)

Browsing through these however I start getting serious doubts about the size of the real loss: there aren't that many gaps in the books, and the original amount of conversation books has never been really documented (it is SAID to be over 400, but never been PROVEN).
I start to get the impression that although Schindler might have destroyed some of them, or ripped out pages of them, or blackened words and/or sentences completely, he did much more damage -at least to the moment in the 1970s when his forgeries were discovered- with his amendments and fake entries which he wrote down in the books (merely to prove his Beethoven biographies were soundly based on tangible evidence).

But for me (and not to forget Philip, who minted this expression) he is and stays Schindler the Swindler.

Hi Angel,

Thank you for starting this new thread. I love the line, Schindler the Swindler. How true!

I will get back to you, I'm just about to run out the door. Sorry for the short note.

Thanks again,
Ann

Ann you are very welcome my good friend... can't believe the SNAKE even did more damage to the conversation books.. fake enteries what for???!! This doesn't make sense!

It did for him.

Schindler was from the 1840s onwards engaged in heavy arguments with important members of the musical world as well as members of the circle around Beethoven.
The way of performing his symphonies was a point of heavy discussions and polemiscs e.g. as were the origins of some compositions and/or their programmatical backgrounds.

The only way to prove his points was by amending the Beethovenian documents he had in his possession as there were some letters, but more importantly: the conversation booklets (Konversationshefte).

The amendmends and falsifications are generally speaking characterized by the following:

-they hardly ever begin at the top of a page. Most of the time they fill up a page to the very bottom.
Reason: empty spaces in the booklets were caused by Beethoven or his visitors turning a page, leaving a part of the turned over page unused.
B did so to mark the first entry of the day, visitors because a new element came into the discussion with the composer, or another visitor entered the room and what had been discussed was not meant to be seen by other eyes.
Therefore there exists no faked entry by Schindler which needs turning a page.

-there are no interruptions by other participants (as there weren't any for obvious reasons)

-the entries are relatively lengthy and concentrated around one specific topic (to make Schindler's point quite clear)

-the sentences are written out completely. This is odd, as Beethoven quite often interrupted his visitors from completing their sentences, as halfway he understood what they meant and immediately reacted orally. [One curse for the editors of the booklets was to find out what B might have said, or what the writer eventually might have meant. It is very similar to hearing one side of a telephone conversation just half…]

-if the fake entries are amendments to existing genuine discussions, Schindler’s handwriting is always much smaller, and definitely much more legible than the surrounding texts: his entry had got to be understood correctly, otherwise it would miss the clue of this kind of the schindlerian fakes: underpinning his points and views by something which seemingly was discussed with Beethoven himself personally.

-quite often there are references to works
An example is the Canon Ta ta ta lieber Mälzel (WoO 162), of which never an original autograph has been seen (except by Schindler of course), but which had to be created in order to prove Schindler’s thesis that the 2nd movement of the 8th symphony was based on this little canon. Schindler’s entry “confirms” that Beethoven, Schindler and some other visitors (all of which were conveniently either living abroad or had died) had sung this canon immediately after it was composed by Beethoven.
Generally speaking there wasn’t much to discuss with B on his music. Beethoven avoided this wherever he could. Entries on music, e.g. sketches, are nearly all in B’s handwriting, he himself used the booklets as a place to dot down some reminders when his sketchbooks were not immediately at hand.
Sometimes there are some allusions to music, but nearly all of these point to performances, e.g. the premiere of the Ninth symphony or the late quartets (one booklet is known to be filled completely on the night of the first performance of the quartet opus 132. It was filled completely. Guess: no entries by one Schindler there…)

Short: changing the conversation books DID make sense to Schindler… (the Swindler)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2008 12:10AM by JB.

JB Wrote:

> Allegedly Schindler the Swindler burnt more than
> half of the original pile of Conversation books.
> Thankfully the surviving books have now been
> deciphered, transcribed, annotated and published
> in their entirety (Ludwig van Beethovens
> Konversationshefte. Ed. Karl-Heinz Köhler e.a..
> 11 vols. Leipzig, 1969-2001)
>
> Browsing through these however I start getting
> serious doubts about the size of the real loss:
> there aren't that many gaps in the books, and the
> original amount of conversation books has never
> been really documented (it is SAID to be over 400,
> but never been PROVEN).
> I start to get the impression that although
> Schindler might have destroyed some of them, or
> ripped out pages of them, or blackened words
> and/or sentences completely, he did much more
> damage -at least to the moment in the 1970s when
> his forgeries were discovered- with his amendments
> and fake entries which he wrote down in the books
> (merely to prove his Beethoven biographies were
> soundly based on tangible evidence).
>
> But for me (and not to forget Philip, who minted
> this expression) he is and stays Schindler the
> Swindler.

I'm visualizing Schindler the Swindler, burning....(somewhere....) I wonder what he had hoped to gain from his activities? Makes me wonder indeed what sort of interpersonal relationship he had with B? Oh, to be a 19th century bug (fly on the wall...)

Interesting JB.. I always thought schilder is some kind of a evil snake! Just even taking a look at the picture of him!

Well, he was not really a crook (???) but a selfimportant third class (far below average) musician who took the oppurtunity which was thrown into his lap by this aquaintance with Beethoven.

I can just imagine B's eyebrows raising when he was in the company of the Swindler. I wonder how controlling he became when B had taken quite ill. Scary thought. I suppose B would have just given up, knowing that his time was limited anyways.

I would love to know what others thought of the Swindler. Wow!!!! Do you think they were giving him the finger behind his back? Probably much more. Hahha! In fact, it was most likely that they had written their thoughts to B in his conversation books. Those would have been put on the fire first by the Swindler. He probably tried desperately to put a hex on them.

Very interesting JB.

Thanks,
Ann

Well said and very interesting JB and Ann, something kind of puzzled me while reading the biography of a genuis. I think it's one of the last three chapter (can not recall it). talked about Beethoven and Schilder having an bad argument, I DON"T remember what page were I read it. Accordoing to the story schilder left. The strange thing I'm wondering what's the fighting about between the two..

I believe that Schindler was using Beethoven to gain self recognition. Trying to ride on the Maestro's coat tails.

And from what I've read, Beethoven did not like to be suffocated/smothered by anyone at all. I suppose having Schindler as a shadow ticked him off. I can just imagine his face turning beet red, and eyes just full of rage.

He needed the NIGHT OWLS, with loving smiles, good food, and lovely red vino. Ja!!!! We could at least try to charm the Maestro! Calm his nerves, and slam the door on Schindler.

What fun!

I'm guess the same Ann... (if Beethoven ever shows up in the Night Owls.. I be online in SECONDS). I guess the snake is probably using Beethoven?

I don´t really have much to add about our dear friend the "Swindler". Still, he has given us some invaluable impressions about the master, and was perhaps an early example of many a celebrity´s PR agent.

As the sketchbooks are scattered all over the place, as are the surviving manuscripts, but the conversation books nearly all are located in one library in Berlin (just two exceptions, I think: one booklet still in private possession, one in the Beethoven Haus in Bonn), we have to be grateful for Schindler's decision not to sell these booklets piece by piece.
Whatever his faults, his machinations, falsifications and straight lies, this one thing deserves our gratitude. But he ever will be Schindler the Swindler.

well said and completely interesting JB

Yes, Schindler did not sell the conversation books. But, do you not think that he feared persecution from Beethoven's friends and regal subscribers for profiting off of the maestro?

Also, it was to his advantage to have the books preserved, showing himself in a very good light. He perhaps wanted the books in a museum setting, and not hidden in a private collection with little to no chance of ever being recognized as a "quote, quote" friend of Ludwig von Beethoven's.

Perhaps I'm being a little to harsh on the Swindler, but I can't help but think that he was taking care of himself.

Ann Wrote:
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> Yes, Schindler did not sell the conversation
> books. But, do you not think that he feared
> persecution from Beethoven's friends and regal
> subscribers for profiting off of the maestro?



>
No, I don’t think so.
At the time Schindler sold the booklets to the Berlin Royal Library (for a lump sum plus an annual pension) B’s manuscripts and more specifically his sketch books were sold or auctioned piece by piece, sometimes taken apart, sometimes even their pages cut to pieces.
Musicology as we know it didn’t exist yet (the worlds first Musicological Society dates from 1869!), and the sketches as well as the conversation booklets were considered to be nice memorabilia, but generally not as valuable sources to increase knowledge about life and/or works.
Thayer and Nottebohm were in the 1860s and the 1880s respectively the first who did recognize the value of these primary sources for understanding Beethoven.

There exists one Beethovenian manuscript with the notes of three distinguished composers: Beethoven’s original dottings, Schubert’s handwriting venerating B (in 1827), and Brahms’ note that he bought the piece of paper in the 1880s.
And Brahms was by that time a very thoughtful and thoroughly serious editor of older and dead composers’ works, as e.g. Schubert (and Bach and Mozart for that matter).
Nevertheless he didn’t even think he was doing something damaging by writing on B’s manuscripts, or buying and selling them.

wow... didn't even know it the snake sell it to the library and other works being auctioned.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Angel, Schindler did not auction B's manuscripts or cut them.
Others did these things from the grand november 1827 auction of Beethoven's possessions onwards, some of these vandals were the very same music publishers and printers to whom B had sold the music.
And nobody -repeat: NOBODY - thought of it as vandalism. It was common practice those days.

that's ok JB, it's just getting interesting by a minute.