Anton Schindler in Beethoven's life

In case we have forgotten : "Schindler the Swindler" (copyright Philip, Strasbourg 2007). All references to said 'Swindler' must be accompanied by cash payments to my various Cayman Island and Swiss bank accounts (details on request).

and as agreed for defending your copyrights throughout this thread 99% into my accounts please (German in Bonn, Swiss in Interlaken, Dutch in Hilversum or simply Welsh in Betws-y-Coed).
The proceeds will be used for charitable organisations as there are the Organisation to Shut Up Grumpy Cellists, the Club for Keeping up with the Needs of all Beethoven's siblings, or just the Association for fully filled Fridge Owners.
(Sorry Domi, this is an outcry I needed to keep Philip on track again).

As a Schindler acolyte I have decided to refrain from commenting on your posting, but will make alterations post mortem.

JB Wrote:
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> and as agreed for defending your copyrights
> throughout this thread 99% into my accounts please
> (German in Bonn, Swiss in Interlaken, Dutch in
> Hilversum or simply Welsh in Betws-y-Coed).
> The proceeds will be used for charitable
> organisations as there are the Organisation to
> Shut Up Grumpy Cellists, the Club for Keeping up
> with the Needs of all Beethoven's siblings, or
> just the Association for fully filled Fridge
> Owners.
> (Sorry Domi, this is an outcry I needed to keep
> Philip on track again).


ROTFL Good one! That will keep philip back on track hehehe. Domi will accept it don't worry. ;-).

My dear Angel, my life is anything but on track. I am a "high plains drifter".

your not really back on track here in the beethoven board. hehehe LOL

I wonder why Schindler did NOT make the following entry by Beethoven illegible:
L.V.Lagneau, die Kunst alle Arten der Lustseuche zu erkennen, zu heilen, u. sich dafür zu hüten, sichern usw. usw. (Conversation booklet nr.2, p.41r, original advert to be found in the viennese Intelligenzblatt dated April 14th 1819): "L.V. Lagneau, the Art to recognize, cure, or protect against all kinds of pleasure illnesses (that is: Venereal Diseases) , etc, etc.

good question... never seen it

JB Wrote:
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> I wonder why Schindler did NOT make the following
> entry by Beethoven illegible:
> L.V.Lagneau, die Kunst alle Arten der Lustseuche
> zu erkennen, zu heilen, u. sich dafür zu hüten,
> sichern usw. usw. (Conversation booklet nr.2,
> p.41r, original advert to be found in the viennese
> Intelligenzblatt dated April 14th 1819): "L.V.
> Lagneau, the Art to recognize, cure, or protect
> against all kinds of pleasure illnesses (that is:
> Venereal Diseases) , etc, etc.

Perhaps Schindler wished to reference it... for some reason... (I joke, of course.)

-Eushayson
-----------------
"Woods, trees, and rock give the response which man requires. Every tree seems to say, 'Holy, Holy!'"
-Ludwig van Beethoven



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2008 09:04AM by Eushayson.

Only god knows if there is anything about swidler

JB Wrote:
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> I wonder why Schindler did NOT make the following
> entry by Beethoven illegible:
> L.V.Lagneau, die Kunst alle Arten der Lustseuche
> zu erkennen, zu heilen, u. sich dafür zu hüten,
> sichern usw. usw. (Conversation booklet nr.2,
> p.41r, original advert to be found in the viennese
> Intelligenzblatt dated April 14th 1819): "L.V.
> Lagneau, the Art to recognize, cure, or protect
> against all kinds of pleasure illnesses (that is:
> Venereal Diseases) , etc, etc.


I suppose "pleasure illnesses" could also be overeating, drinking heavily, onanism and so on. The venereal disease supposition is interesting. I'm glad to see, JB, that you share my feeling about Beethoven : that he was a man, and as such prey to all the usual weaknesses. It is curious, as you ask, why Schindler did not simply destroy this entry. Any more light to be thrown on this?

Philip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
.
> I'm glad to see, JB, that you share my feeling
> about Beethoven : that he was a man, and as such
> prey to all the usual weaknesses.

That indeed makes two of us.

It is curious,
> as you ask, why Schindler did not simply destroy
> this entry. Any more light to be thrown on this?

I have thought about reasons for this.

It iws possible that Schindler has much less material destroyed as sometimes is believed he did (I personally think he actually did NOT destroy as many as some 200 conversation booklets, as I have explained sometme ago in this forum elsewhere);

a possibillity as well is, that Schindler was unable to decipher this rather badly legible entry of B's (just remember: this kind of entries served only as a reminder for B personally and no one else, so it needed only to be legible and intelligible to him only!) and its contents therefore escaped his attention;

or, there exists a very innocent explanation for this entry, one which sofar has escaped OUR attention.

But it is an odd entry in B's hand.

JB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
IPhilip wroye : it is curious, as you ask, why Schindler did not simply destroy this entry. Any more light to be thrown on this?
-------------------------------------------------------

I have thought about reasons for this.
> It iws possible that Schindler has much less
> material destroyed as sometimes is believed he did
> (I personally think he actually did NOT destroy as
> many as some 200 conversation booklets, as I have
> explained sometme ago in this forum elsewhere);
>
> A possibillity as well is, that Schindler was
> unable to decipher this rather badly legible entry
> of B's (just remember: this kind of entries served
> only as a reminder for B personally and no one
> else, so it needed only to be legible and
> intelligible to him only!) and its contents
> therefore escaped his attention;
>
> or, there exists a very innocent explanation for
> this entry, one which sofar has escaped OUR
> attention.
>
> But it is an odd entry in B's hand.

Thank you JB. I think your second assumption rings true : that "the Swindler" was unable to decipher B's handwriting. Talking of male weakness (Phoenix, hush now!), did Beethoven frequent prostitutes? Is it likely? I think so. What do you think? This in no way diminishes my admiration for the man and the musician.

Although B sometimes agressively agitated against pleasure women, I think it is more than likely he frequented some of them.
But -given his own morals- I don't think it was a habit of his.

JB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Although B sometimes agressively agitated against
> pleasure women, I think it is more than likely he
> frequented some of them.
> But -given his own morals- I don't think it was a
> habit of his.


JB, I think there is a wide gap between what B said and what he did. He could hardly write or admit otherwise. As you say, it was probably never a habit, but maybe he had a few relapses when his physical needs became pressing. Am I being heretical to suggest such a thing? I don't think so. We must consider the historical context here.

Philip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> JB, I think there is a wide gap between what B
> said and what he did. He could hardly write or
> admit otherwise. As you say, it was probably never
> a habit, but maybe he had a few relapses when his
> physical needs became pressing. Am I being
> heretical to suggest such a thing? I don't think
> so. We must consider the historical context here.

I don't think in the present age and time this is heretical. We appreciate B as a genial composer, and now we are able to appreciate him as a human being too, especially since primary sources like the diary, the complete letters, as well as the complete concersation booklets have become available to scholars, Beethoven fanatics [as us], and the musical world in general.

I don't think it was a habit of his, but we only have to recall Schubert's habits to get an impression of what was considered "normal", as part of the circle around Schubert was part of the circle around Beethoven too. They shared friends.

Indeed. I have suggested the same on another Beethoven forum, and have been savagely (well, robustly) rebuked for suggesting such a thing. I'm sure that B was a moral and ethical being (I am, too), but he was not a hermit, he was not an angel, he was not a high-priest, he was a man. And we know what that entails.

Philip Wrote:
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I'm
> sure that B was a moral and ethical being (I am,
> too ?????????? ), but he was not a hermit, he was not an
> angel, he was not a high-priest, he was a man. And
> we know what that entails.

There is a lot of sublimation of his subdued/suppressed feelings in his music - as shown by Solomon (in the 1977 biography for a start, but elsewhere, e.g. his Beethoven Essays, as well).

JB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is a lot of sublimation of his
> subdued/suppressed feelings in his music - as
> shown by Solomon (in the 1977 biography for a
> start, but elsewhere, e.g. his Beethoven Essays,
> as well).

Indeed. As Susan McClary has posited regarding the 1st movement of the Ninth, n'est-ce pas? Another writer (the name escapes me for the moment) suggests one of the movements in the 2nd symphony is B's sublimation of the workings of his digestive tract. All most fascinating.

Philip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Another
> writer (the name escapes me for the moment)
> suggests one of the movements in the 2nd symphony
> is B's sublimation of the workings of his
> digestive tract. All most fascinating.


Could be Vingko Globokar's pieces for Solo trombone from the 1970s, for that matter.