Anton Schindler in Beethoven's life

Philip Wrote:
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> Back to Schindler, then : can anyone post a photo
> of this miserable person?

Swindler-it's an actual photograph-not a portrait or painting--jus think had Beethoven lived a few more years we'd have a PHOTO of him too




To suffer silently in plain view is the most insufferable of all suffering-PIR

That's the photo I remember seeing. It gives me the creeps!

Do you think that if we saw a photo of Beethoven that we might be disappointed? Or, surprised?

That is the question?

Hmmm-interesting query--well my thought would be" neither either way". We would not be surprised, because it would already be in existence before our arrival into the innocent world (I say 'innocent' sarcastically, you know ) Of course, if we had seen all the portraits/interpretations before the photo-yeah, it would be a revelation. But then, who's to say what you'd see first, had it been so?

cheers

PHX


To suffer silently in plain view is the most insufferable of all suffering-PIR

Just wondering: I know that Schindler is a common name, but could Anton have been an ancestor of Oscar?

If so, then they were as alike as night and day in personality, ja?

Thanks

Q

"Prince, what you are, you are by chance and by birth. There will be thousands of princes, but there is only one Beethoven." Ludwig van Beethoven, Vienna Austria - 1806

Hi,

Yeah, I meant if for some strange reason someone found a sole photo of Beethoven today. It would be weird?

There was a website in existence a couple of years ago, where a graphic artist was trying to create the true likeness of LvB. She was using the measurements and photos taken from the exhumation of his remains back in the 1800's. Unfortunately, the site no longer exists.

At that point she had been working on it for sometime. I have tried to find her, and will keep trying.

that is interesting Ann-do you remember her name?


To suffer silently in plain view is the most insufferable of all suffering-PIR

Unfortunately, I don't remember. I will do a search and see what I come up with.

Have a great day!

We'll leave the tab for Schindler to pay! He's probably been preserved, and wandering somewhere in this world.

Ann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
He's
> probably been preserved, and wandering somewhere
> in this world.

Ahhhh, so that's what that smell is...


To suffer silently in plain view is the most insufferable of all suffering-PIR

Hi Phoenix,

The website that I was trying to remember is "graphixnow.com". Unfortunately, it would seem that it's been removed.

If I come across the artist's name, you will be the first to know.

Back again, and so quick.

The artist's name is Donna Lee Dralle. And it does seem that the site is still up and running. Take a look through her website and you will find I believe under project book the info re: LvB.

I wanna be the first to know, too, Ann!

Q

"Prince, what you are, you are by chance and by birth. There will be thousands of princes, but there is only one Beethoven." Ludwig van Beethoven, Vienna Austria - 1806

Schindler was P.T. Barnum before P.T. Barnum thought "Huckster-Scheiss-terism" was cool!

Q

"Prince, what you are, you are by chance and by birth. There will be thousands of princes, but there is only one Beethoven." Ludwig van Beethoven, Vienna Austria - 1806

Hello Quasimodem! Long time no see! You ok? Come and talk about Beethoven with us.

I am, as of this writing, still alive, but much has happened which probably oughtn't to be discussed here, our beloved Maestro's forum.

Thanks for the note

Q

"Prince, what you are, you are by chance and by birth. There will be thousands of princes, but there is only one Beethoven." Ludwig van Beethoven, Vienna Austria - 1806

Not sure where to post this but I have a letter written from Beethoven to Anton Schindler dated 1823. It is nicely framed. Heres the kicker on the matting it has a hand written border and signed by Jeffrey Kahane from the LA Orchestra. I will attach a link to the photo's, if anyone knows anything about this letter please let me know. This is a piece of history and has no place sitting on my wall. I believe that this item ( via the stamp) was in possession of the Royal Library of Berlin. During WWII many items were shipped to Poland for storage to avoid bombing from the allies. There were many monasteries and churches used for storage knowing that the allies would not bomb them. How it made it out of Poland and found it way to mr. Kahane is the mystery. I have tried to contact him and many museums but I am at a dead end. Please help I didn't know who to go to and this forum seems to have lots and lots of knowledge. Here are the links to the images.

[s306.photobucket.com]

Here is the translation I can find references to this letter, but nothing on where the letter came from and who had it, and when they had it.

Very best one ! In pursuance of the following HatiSherif you have to present youself at 3.30 this afternoon in the Mariahilf coffee-house, in order to be cross-examined about your various punishable acts. Should this H.S. not find you to-day, you are commanded to appear before me to-morrow at 1.30, where, having partaken of water and bread, you will have to undergo confinement for 24 hours.

L. V. !! Bthven.

This is NOT the translation of the letter I have, just a more legible version of it. See the picture of the Actual translation of my letter.

Here is notes from a book I found that had it listed.


[Accordng to the original manuscript in the possession of the Royal Library at Berlin; first printed by Dr. Kalischer. There are seventy-three original letters from Beethoven to Schindler, in the Royal Library, Berlin. They are in many cases interesting. Most of them belong to the years 1823 and 1824, when Beethoven was especially occupied with the subscriptions for his Mass in D. Beethoven always addressed Schindler in a, tone of sovereign authority, which, however, the receiver of the letters did not take in bad part. Certain things which Beethoven only indicated by initial letters, Schindler in carefully copying wrote out in full. He was frequently addressed as " Samothracian L—k " (scamp), but in all letters of the kind Schindler filled up the gaps after the initials. The expression " Samothracian " had reference to the Samothracian mysteries in Greece, which in part were based on music. As silence was imposed upon the youths in the Greek mysteries, so Schindler had always to be silent. He was also called, after the musical hero in Mozart's " Zauberflote," Papageno. Many ways in which the addresses on Schindler's letters were written show Beethoven's humour at its merriest. For instance: " Herr A. von Schindler, Moravian cranium," another is " Pour Monsieur Papageno de Schindler," or, as in the letter in question, &c. Great praise is due to Schindler for having copied out the various letters and notices which he received from Beethoven, and for the many valuable marginal notes which he provided. If Beethoven's writing in general is not remarkable for clearness, this may be said in the highest degree of these notices sent to Schindler; even one well acquainted with Beethoven's writing and mode of life would find it not seldom impossible to decipher the master's hieroglyphics. L.V. stands for Lumpenkerl vale, that is, " Farewell, scamp."]

DCCCLXXXVI To The Same



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2010 06:58PM by briguy2112.

Welcome to these boards Briguy2112!

From the Beethoven Briefe Gesamtausgabe (7 vol., Bonn/München 1997):

"1504. Beethoven an Anton Felix Schindler
[Wien, zwischen Oktober 1822 und Mai 1823] 1
Sehr Bester!
Gemäß folgendem Hati-Scherif 2 habt ihr euch um halb 4 uhr heute Nachmittag im Mariahilfer KaffeHauß 3 einzufinden, um euch über verschiedene strafbare Handlungen zu vernehmen - sollte dieser H.[ati] S.[herif] euch heute nicht finden, so seyd ihr morgen um halb 2 uhr verpflichtet, euch bey mir einzufinden, wo ihr nach genoßenem Waßer u. Brodt euch in einen 24 Stündigen Arrest zu begeben habt.
L. v.!! Bthven
a Monsieur de Schindler premier membre engagè et atachè aux Faubourg de J.[oseph]stadt. 4


Quelle: Autograph, 1 Blatt, 1 beschriebene Seite (Bleistift, von Schindler mit Tinte nachgezogen); Berlin, Staatsbibliothek (aut. 39,21).
Faksimile: Ludwig van Beethoven. Neun ausgewählte Briefe an Anton Schindler. Faksimile-Ausgabe nach den Originalen aus dem Besitz der Deutschen Staatsbibliothek Berlin, Leipzig 1970, S. 9.

Auf der Rückseite unter der Adresse Textübertragung und Anmerkung von der Hand Schindlers: "Beethoven an Schindler vom Jahre 1823. in den Wintermonathen".
1 Aufgrund der Erwähnung des Mariahilfer Kaffeehauses dürfte der Brief aus dem Zeitraum Herbst 1822/Frühjahr 1823 stammen, s. Anm. 3. Möglicherweise entstand er in zeitlicher Nähe zu Brief 1524 von Januar 1823, in dem das Kaffeehaus ebenfalls genannt wird.
2 Hattischerif: Kabinettsorder des türkischen Sultans, gegen die kein Einspruch möglich war.
3 Dieses nicht näher zu bestimmende Kaffeehaus in der Wiener Vorstadt Mariahilf wurde von Beethoven vorzugsweise in der Zeit von Oktober 1822 bis Mai 1823 besucht, als er in der benachbarten Vorstadt Windmühle wohnte.
4 Schindler war in dem am 3.10.1822 wiedereröffneten Theater in der Josephstadt als Konzertmeister angestellt. "

It looks that the letter you've got is a facsimile or a photocopy, as the original (correctly marked cf the pictures you've provided as 39,21 from the Berlin State Library [Berlin, Staatsbibliothek ]) is still there.
The original was in pencil. The text has been inked by Schindler. Of the original beethovenian pencil text some parts are still visible.