Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile
 
BiographyBooksMusicFamily TreeVisitsGalleriesLovesCollections: stamps, cards, coins and medalsCdsBuy cds, books, music and moreForumMore...
Selection...
Fourm Beethoven
 

Advanced

Was Beethoven gay?

Posted by Paul Knobel 
Was Beethoven gay?
April 06, 2010 07:56PM
For a dictionary of Famous Homosexuals and Bisexuals (only males however) which has 4,045 entries I seek an answer to this question.

Beethoven has an entry in Bernd Hergemoller's Mann für Mann, a German gay biographical work (there are some 12 references listed).


Paul Knobel
Sydney, Australia
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 06, 2010 10:21PM
(a) who cares??? it doesn't change my opinion about his music.
(b) joyful is going to be mad at those who say that beethoven was gay grinning smiley

welcome on this phorum Paul Knobel.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 06, 2010 10:48PM
marios Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (a) who cares??? it doesn't change my opinion
> about his music.
> (b) joyful is going to be mad at those who say
> that beethoven was gay grinning smiley
>
> welcome on this phorum Paul Knobel.

the variations on a theme of feelings indicate (in his music, his writings -his diaries, conversation books-his moods--as indicated by those who say they observed him/dealt with him--that on occasion he was gay...


...other times he was sad, other times, resentful, other times, hateful, other times, brimming with pure unadulterated JOYFULness, and the list goes on...

... so it's not a question or not as to whether he was gay-but on which occasions, and for what

How dare me!thumbs up smiley

(....BTW I'm using the English language before it became English Slanguage...gay means happy-but not overjoyed (I really don't give a wholly rip about the New World diverse way of speakin' when it comes to using my learned tongue...crap, I spent 12 years in prison (public school) to be taught how to speak English...I'm trying to justify "doin' time"...so, spank me)


--if that doesn't clear the matter up, I doubt anything will....spinning smiley sticking its tongue outtongue sticking out smileygrinning smiley

(On a different note: if you are asking if he was a homo-sexual...errrrr, for anyone wanting to know back in his day I'd imagine the wise ones would be ready to duck-n-run at his response to a question like that...drinking smiley)


...as you were (carry on...)smileys with beer

PHX

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/middleearthdweller/3-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.gif
"I love most the realm of mind which, to me, is the highest of all spiritual and temporal monarchies."--LvB Summer of 1814



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2010 11:14PM by PhoenixIsRising.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 06, 2010 10:51PM
Oh, in observance of good forum manners: WELCOME to the forum Paul!smiling bouncing smileysmoking smiley

Phoenix

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/middleearthdweller/3-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.gif
"I love most the realm of mind which, to me, is the highest of all spiritual and temporal monarchies."--LvB Summer of 1814
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 06, 2010 11:04PM
Welcome Paul!

A short and definitive answer: not a chance B were gay.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 07, 2010 05:28AM
indeed, no matter how long or how short, the answer remains the same.

now, I have a question: what is it about the reputation and the historical behavior of Beethoven that would possess anyone to think that he was a homosexual-this question has erected itself before in other circles (aside from all the rumor mongers' activities the world houses?) Maybe someone or two or three or more was so uncontrollably jealous of this man or consistently enough angered by him that they sought various methods (to include claiming he was a homosexual when he was in fact not) to get back at him...

<Actually, there's jus no telling (esp amongst ourselves in this day) what he himself may have done or said in his day to anyone in particular that never "made the record">smiling smiley

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/middleearthdweller/3-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.gif
"I love most the realm of mind which, to me, is the highest of all spiritual and temporal monarchies."--LvB Summer of 1814



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2010 05:35AM by PhoenixIsRising.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 09, 2010 02:22PM
JB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome Paul!
>
> A short and definitive answer: not a chance B
> were gay.
----------------------------------------------------------

Hello Paul Knobel, and a hearty welcome to you, too. I like short, "to-the-point" questions like yours above. JB's, Mario's and Phoenix's responses are natural and unsurprising. I am currently reading Owen Jander, "Beethoven's Orpheus Concerto", and I may have a different view. I will report more in detail later.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 10, 2010 12:03AM
I omitted to give the full bibliographical reference :
Owen Jander, Beethoven's "Orpheus" Concerto : the Fourth Piano Concerto in its Cultural Context, North American Beethoven Studies No. 5, Pendragon Press, N.Y. 2009.
I will have to launch a new thread about this work in light of this book. As a little teaser to partly answer Paul Knobel's question above, Jander posits a homosexual "strand" in Beethoven's psychological make-up via his choice of Ovid's and Virgil's Orpheus legend to inform the "narrative" of this concerto, namely, "Greek love", or "love of boys", to put it somewhat crudely. Less crudely, having lost his beloved wife Euridice, Orpheus renounces women.
I will post something on the relevant thread later.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 10, 2010 01:12AM
My God, another cliff-hanger...looking forward to existing on the edge again, my immortal cello-istsmiling bouncing smiley (now back to my NCIS marathon, then back into the heated indoor pool for more running laps--I'm feeling the pain of the proper shape again)

<<>>>

PHX

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/middleearthdweller/3-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.gif
"I love most the realm of mind which, to me, is the highest of all spiritual and temporal monarchies."--LvB Summer of 1814



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 01:17AM by PhoenixIsRising.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 10, 2010 01:30AM
Ah, "cliff hanger", gay slang for ...

Helloooooo, Phoenix .... !!!
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 10, 2010 08:09AM
Greetings newbie.. for the answer of the question:

he is NOT gay, and never was THANK GOD
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 10, 2010 03:58PM
Philip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Less
> crudely, having lost his beloved wife Euridice,
> Orpheus renounces women.
> I will post something on the relevant thread
> later.

Renounces women...or all other women? (Just a flickering by of a thought-while waiting with short, BAITED BREATH in anticipation of the customary unpredictable and stimulating response that only Philip can muster)

PHX

Hello again to our forum's little Angelina smileys with beer(sometimes dynamite comes in small packagessmoking smiley)

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/middleearthdweller/3-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.gif
"I love most the realm of mind which, to me, is the highest of all spiritual and temporal monarchies."--LvB Summer of 1814
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 12, 2010 01:15AM
I would agree with Angel. smiling smiley

LOVE and ADORE Ludwig and his music!
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 12, 2010 03:25PM
Awwww thanks sisters! :-D
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 14, 2010 09:12PM
I, too, don´t think he was gay.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 14, 2010 09:58PM
PhoenixIsRising Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Philip Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> Less
> > crudely, having lost his beloved wife Euridice,
> > Orpheus renounces women.
> > I will post something on the relevant thread
> > later.
>
> Renounces women...or all other women? (Just a
> flickering by of a thought-while waiting with
> short, BAITED BREATH in anticipation of the
> customary unpredictable and stimulating response
> that only Philip can muster)
>
> PHX
>
> Hello again to our forum's little Angelina
> smileys with beer(sometimes dynamite comes in small
> packagessmoking smiley)

---------------------------------------------------------
As far as I understand the Orpheus legend, after losing Euridice for a second time he renounces all other women, I suppose, and sings now instead of "love for boys". Well, you would, wouldn't you?

Personally, I don't really think that Beethoven was gay, but am simply intrigued by various points made by the Owen Jander book mentioned above (April 10, 2010) concerning a possible "homosexual" strand in B's psychological makeup that he (Jander) links to B's choice of the Orpheus legend as a "narrative backdrop" to his 4th Piano Concerto and his close relationship with Kanne (who also wrote an Orpheus opera around the same time). I will try to expand on this and other points on my "Beethoven's Orpheus Concerto" thread.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 14, 2010 10:19PM
marios Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (a) who cares??? it doesn't change my opinion
> about his music.
> (b) joyful is going to be mad at those who say
> that beethoven was gay grinning smiley
>
> welcome on this phorum Paul Knobel.
---------------------------------------------------

Hello Marios. I'll take your point (b) first : Joyful seems not to have exploded in rage at Paul Knobel's suggestion, so we can all let our breath out now. Phew !!

Your point (a) : I don't care about B's sexuality either, but I disagree with you about how knowledge of certain things cannot change one's opinion, or at least might "colour" that opinion. As far as I understand from the literature, Beethoven was always reluctant to specify any definite "programme", as he felt that this might constrain the listener's enjoyment of his music. Carl Czerny wrote about this specifically :

"He knew that music is not so freely felt by the hearers when a definitely expressed subject has already fettered their imagination". (Carl Czerny, On the Proper Performance of All Beethoven's Works for the Piano, facsimile edition by Paul Badura-Skoda, Vienna : Universal Edition, 1970.)

So, though prior knowledge of Beethoven's sexuality either way would not change my opinion of his music, any new element might change my "reception" of a given work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2010 10:21PM by Philip.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 15, 2010 01:18AM
Philip Wrote:
> As far as I understand the Orpheus legend, after
> losing Euridice for a second time he renounces all
> other women, I suppose, and sings now instead of
> "love for boys". **Well, you would, wouldn't you?

**Ehm....Naaaeeeeooooooooooooooooooooow....

I'd bow out before I'd bow down...
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd340/gifmanic/thsmooch-1.gif

> Personally, I don't really think that Beethoven
> was gay, but am simply intrigued by various points
> made by the Owen Jander book mentioned above
> (April 10, 2010) concerning a possible
> "homosexual" strand in B's psychological makeup
> that he (Jander) links to B's choice of the
> Orpheus legend as a "narrative backdrop" to his
> 4th Piano Concerto and his close relationship with
> Kanne (who also wrote an Orpheus opera around the
> same time). I will try to expand on this and other
> points on my "Beethoven's Orpheus Concerto"
> thread.

Very interesting points to view, Philip...thank you for taking the time to plug it all in...Friends, applaudsmiling smiley

....guess there will be 'more to come' then smoking smiley

as B would agree:

http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o430/twinkletoesemoticons/Dark_Side_of_Beethoven-Copy-1.gif
[www.youtube.com] http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o430/twinkletoesemoticons/bee.jpg
"Dedicated to you, Erudice..."
Regards,"
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/middleearthdweller/Beethoven_jh18-1.gifhttp://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii257/LVBLEG_Y1811/posh.gif

Cheers

PHX

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/middleearthdweller/3-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.gif
"I love most the realm of mind which, to me, is the highest of all spiritual and temporal monarchies."--LvB Summer of 1814



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2010 01:19AM by PhoenixIsRising.
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 15, 2010 02:45AM
Aileea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I, too, don´t think he was gay.


Hey there!! Nice to see you again, Aileea! smoking smiley

Philip Wrote:
> Personally, I don't really think that Beethoven
> was gay, but am simply intrigued by various points
> made by the Owen Jander book mentioned above
> (April 10, 2010) concerning a possible
> "homosexual" strand in B's psychological makeup
> that he (Jander) links to B's choice of the
> Orpheus legend as a "narrative backdrop" to his
> 4th Piano Concerto and his close relationship with
> Kanne (who also wrote an Orpheus opera around the
> same time). I will try to expand on this and other
> points on my "Beethoven's Orpheus Concerto"
> thread.

This will ultimately boil down more or less to the spotlight being on Kanne, won't it?grinning smiley (I know nuttin' about Kanne-except that pretty entertaining run of the subject person on the Nightowls threadsmiling bouncing smiley)

So, Kanne you shed a little more light on him/her? Me B innerestedsmiling smiley

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll130/middleearthdweller/3-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.gif
"I love most the realm of mind which, to me, is the highest of all spiritual and temporal monarchies."--LvB Summer of 1814
Re: Was Beethoven gay?
April 15, 2010 03:47AM
Beethoven was not gay, and was certainly never in love with Kanne, who was an intelligent and interesting coffeehouse intellectual sparring partner. But, judging from his letters, he was a bit in love with Karl Amenda in his late twenties. In love in an emotional, not erotic sense - but the borderline between the two can be fuzzy. It is quite possible to be heterosexual and fall in love on occasion with someone of the same gender.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2010 03:52AM by QueenOmphale.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

Retour au menu...

Back to main menu...Ludwig van Beethoven's website...Back to main menu...
Copyright Dépôt
Ludwig van Beethoven's website - http://www.LvBeethoven.com
-Forum-SearchMapGuestbook UpdatesContactAboutHome© Dominique PREVOT